75e410290bf99bc9f4e56d7bc15cb4ab
Dan October 19, 2024

GEN. MUGISHA MUNTU

Moderator: Welcome to this edition of Agora Discourse, where we want to discuss, to continue the conversation on transition in Uganda. And today we have General Mugisha Muntu, who is a former army commander, leads the Alliance for National Transformation. I don’t know if he still does, but he was a presidential candidate and flag bearer for the Alliance for National Transformation in the elections last year. And of course, he has played many other roles in the politics of this country, including being part of the liberation in quotes that brought the 1986 crew and the NRM government in power. General, you are welcome to the space. Let’s confirm if you can hear us and if you can say hello to the listeners. 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: Good evening Agather and the listeners. I hope you can hear me. 

Moderator: Yes, yes, we can hear you. So, General, now that you’re here, let’s get right into the discussion. The question of transition in Uganda has been here for a while. I think one can say it started in 2004 and 2005, around the time the term limits were removed from the constitution. And we know that many people have been advocating for a peaceful transfer of power for once, ever since we got independence, which we celebrated 62 years yesterday. But we have seen it get worse from 2004 to now, including the Muhoozi project that came up in 2013, including the removal of the age limits from the constitution in 2017. But of late, I think it has been triggered again by, we can also talk about the coming into the government of the current Minister of Justice, a overt Mao, who said he was coming to do just that, to ensure some more transition. He has been talking about constitutional reforms, constitutional amendments, where some people say they want to bring an amendment that removes universal suffrage in electing the president. But also recently, the president’s son and also CDF said he will not be on the ballot, after saying he will stand for quite a number of times. And saying that his father will be on the ballot also added that there will be no civilian vote in this country. And that brings us to a question of how you see the issue of transition in this country, from where you see it, what is likely to happen, what are your views about it? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: Thank you, Agather. Of course, your introduction on the question is loaded with so many issues. I hope along the way we will deal with them one by one. But for a start, let me first maybe enlighten the public about our leadership structure in advance for national transformation. Thank you, Agatha. Of course, your introduction and the question is loaded with so many issues. I hope along the way we will deal with them one by one. But for a start, let me first enlighten the public about our leadership structure in Alliance for National Transformation. I ceased being the national coordinator for Alliance for National Transformation when I decided to run as the presidential flag bearer for Alliance for National Transformation. The top leader of our party when we elect a substantive leader would be a chairperson. We don’t have the position of the president. The unique thing about Alliance for National Transformation, I think we’ve more or less pioneered that model because it’s not yet here. We’ve had two other models here where parties which have a model where the party leader automatically becomes the party president when they participate in a general election. I think the parties which follow that model, the ones I can recall, off cuff is UPC and DP. The president-general of DP automatically becomes the flag bearer of DP for presidency. Similarly, UPC. The other model is the one which includes JEEMA, FDC, and NRM, where the party leader does not automatically become the flag bearer when they, I think, towards a general election, they’re supposed to hold elections for the flag bearer. So you could find the party leader, if he or she wins, would become the flag bearer at the same time. In the event that they don’t win, then you’ll find the party president and then the flag bearer being different. I think the only party which has practiced that, at least for the period when I was in FDC, that was the case. I think FDC has practiced that. NRM hasn’t yet. We have not seen that function in NRM yet. Now our party, the party leader, the moment the party leader decides, that’s in the initial stages when we are starting. When we elect the party leader next, the party leader will come in knowing for sure that he or she cannot run for the presidency nor run for another elective office. The party leader’s role is to concentrate on strengthening the party, the organization, to the extent that the focus will be put on how those who run on the party ticket succeed, right from the presidency down to lower levels, MPs, mayors, LC5s, LC3s, and the rest. But in our case, being a transitional leadership, we decided to put it to the test. So when I ran for the presidency, I relinquished that position and therefore Hon Alice Alaaso is the national coordinator for national transformation. I thought I needed to start with that first. Now into the questions you have asked. 

One, there are several. I believe we are talking about different, we have different transitions. And all of us who are participating in building, or at least who want to build a strong foundation on the basis of which there will be good governance, need to understand the different types of transitions that we have to deal with, and we have to deal with them simultaneously. And the one which transcends most, which are current, is the one which was right from 1962, transitioning from a post-colonial state into an independent state. We have not succeeded yet. When you look at all, by all measures, our independence state is supposed to act. But that possibly could be a discussion for another day. Right now, we would be dealing with the transitions where you have one leader of government handing over peacefully to another. That hasn’t happened yet. We have also seen situations where in some countries, for example, like in Tanzania, where leaders hand over to other leaders but within the same party. Tanzania also hasn’t had a change of power or at least transitioned to a point where you would see a different party winning and the ruling party handing over to it. The case that we have seen like in Ghana. So here we’ve never seen one government handing over to another. Internally, within the same structure as the ruling party, in the case that it would be a party running the country, or even to see an individual from one party handing over to another. That’s the complexity of our situation. And what is the most complicating factors, I suppose, are we’re dealing with a situation where we are trying to build a democracy without actually having democrats, at least a significant number of them, to the extent that the democrats would be the dominant force. Because at any given point in time in any society, in any country, the dominant force is the one which establishes the culture on the basis of which governance is conducted. So we will have to grapple with all these issues, but I think that is at the root of the problem that we are faced with. In the political past, we don’t have right now the balance of forces in favor of people who are doing by self beyond anything else. People who don’t care about the building of institutions, people who don’t care about establishing systems of governance that do not only serve them, but that would also subsequently serve those who would come after them. Any group that does not look at the country as a critical thing, which makes positive transitions, can be managed. That’s the crisis we are in. And we have to deal with all these issues simultaneously. One, we have got to work day and night to ensure that at least within the political class, that the balance of forces is shifted in favor of those who look at the country first and foremost. Then follows the party, because parties are the vehicles of governance. And then the individuals come in within the parties which would be in power and those which would be outside power. Because if the dominant culture in a country is of people, those in government, those outside of government, that look at the country as the most critical factor, as the most important factor, then that becomes a coalescing point. That means that you get men and women who do things because of their country first and foremost. We now have that upside down. Right now, the balance of forces is in favor of individuals who look at power as a means for self-advancement. And therefore, the mess that we see right from 1962 until now, it should be obvious to all of us. And that’s what we need to tackle. That’s what we need to wear on. This bunch which is in power right now, I know there are some definitely who love the country. There’s no doubt about that. But they are in a minority. And most of them have chosen to take a low profile. They don’t want to raise their heads because they think maybe they would be neutralized or whatever. But that’s the fact that we are faced with. Now, on the other side, which also complicates the matter faster, I mean, in a deeper way. Why in the ruling class, the balance of forces in favor of those who are driven by selfish motives over and above consideration of advancing national interests, is the complicating factor of having a citizenship that has got such low levels of political consciousness, to the extent that they become highly vulnerable, highly manipulatable. Of course, they are dead women, which unfortunately seem not to recognize. Which sudden, should sudden anybody watching this situation, because they are the main factor that can cause the shift in the balance of forces in favor of having those in the political class could be advancing the national interest because people in politics if they know that their base would be cut if they do things in their own self-interest over and above the national interest then they would wake up but we have got a population that is so uh almost detached and and unfortunately the the prevailing uh prevailing um I don’t know what to term it the prevailing I don’t know let’s call it culture or what in the majority of the people the governed or the led people will complain from morning until evening 24 7 you hear them voice them the issues that concern them it’s not that they don’t know they know at least that to the extent of knowing they know but for some strange reason they expect someone else to act to to to to to uh yank them out of the situation which they find themselves of course most times it’s not their fault that they find themselves where they are the leaders are the ones who make the mistakes but it is it is uh unfortunately that the majority of the people who are in our citizenry do not recognize that the only way we can shape our future is for them to be active in spite of whatever risks whatever challenges whatever sacrifices they have to make and therefore therein lies the dilemma so all the things you’re asking these issues of money of coming with the um coming with the amendments those are symptoms of a larger problem and all these amendments which the ruling party is trying to manipulate through a a very very uh highly manipulatable parliament is won’t be the first time we saw it happen in 2004 that was the most unfortunate when they amended the term limits we saw it happen during the age limit and now you see they are heading towards changing even the electoral the the this no no no the the governance system from presidential from presidential to parliamentary simply to suit one individual and therefore we must ask ourselves as citizens are we most of those above are we are we like footprint are we some form of i don’t know what you know because when we are complaining are we complaining by the very fact that dictators or authoritarian leaders or autocratic leaders whatever name one may want to call them by nature they are driven by self-interest when we are complaining who do you expect is going to listen they won’t because first and foremost they look at how to manipulate you if you are the citizenry and how to maintain hold on to power the consequence of which already is a country which unlucky end up in disaster okay so yeah i think maybe those are the initial comments i can make We are the sixth generation and ought to maintain hold on to power. The consequence of which already is the countries which are unlucky end up in disaster. 

Moderator: Yes, when you talk about them looking at us as children… I was asking a question, are we kids? What kind of human beings are we? Are we like kids that we cannot understand that we are the ones who must salvage ourselves? Because I think that’s how they look at us as well. When the CDF is also, the president’s son says this country will not be led by any civilian after Museveni. He’s taking away our agency and decision making in all these things. What does that imply? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: Well, of course, General General Museveni has tested the waters over and over. He has seen that he is able to manipulate the political class, to manipulate the population. So when he does the thing that he does, I suspect he believes that he would pull off anything. Because that’s the signal he gets. And I think that’s the most untapping thing. That we, the majority of us who are educated, the majority of us who are in the middle class, or the nascent middle class, the majority of us who are the political elite, the economic elite, that why would we not ask ourselves and say, look, how can we be in a situation, seeing a country heading towards a crisis whose magnitude we cannot even comprehend yet. And we sit there and hope that something will turn this around, without actively participating in ensuring that first we apply the brakes, and cause those who are in power to wake up, and wake up fully. And in that regard, it wouldn’t really matter which party one belongs to, whether it’s a ruling party or opposition party, because once a country goes up in smoke, everybody gets their flak. 

Moderator: I think, well, so, that’s, we’re still staying with that point. Recently we had Andrew Mwenda on this platform. yes and um and he was saying how he sees uh this playing out and he said that he knows that president Museveni is going to die in power and if he dies when that happens it wasn’t a matter of if uh that it’s the army that he sees as the only institution that is capable of deciding what happens next whether there’s going to be the vice president you know uh taking over as the as the constitution says or whether the army you know takes over and leads the country and and and it’s really ties in with that when you say that the president has tested the waters and it’s a lot in what he says and how he says it you’re not going to destabilize my country and you know things like those what what do you think will happen if president Museveni dies in power? What role do you think? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: One thing Mwenda must have forgotten and it seems that’s an element which she shares with General Museveni. None of us knows. There are things we don’t know. So to lay such a claim is you you it’s like you are trying to usurp the role of God. Mwenda is not God. General Museveni himself is not God. Even whatever he is trying to do he he doesn’t know. Will it go through? Will not go through. If you pull off some uh you make some moves and you pull them off successfully doesn’t mean that you keep on pulling them off. At times I have seen dictators who think like that and many times they try they try one more extra move and that’s what triggers a situation that that runs them out of power. Now in some cases where where countries are lucky the transition uh is conducted and the country remains stable. Countries which have been unlucky most of them have literally gone into uh crisis. We saw what happened in Libya. We’ve seen what has happened in Libya. We saw what happened in in Iraq. We just saw recently what happened in Sudan. All those people thought like how Mwenda thinks. Gaddafi didn’t die in power. Mobutu didn’t die in power. Mubarak didn’t die in power. Graded down south in Zimbabwe didn’t die in power. Fortunately for for Zimbabwe the the they had uh one of the most sophisticated uh changes in power. Anybody who is interested to have a a deep understanding of the Zimbabwe transitional change in power much much as it was within the same system would need to read a book called Two Weeks in November written by an American journalist whose name I have forgotten. Different countries all those that I’ve mentioned have had different conditions, different forms of changes. By the point I was trying to make all those be it Mugabe or Saddam and Saddam Hussein or Mubarak or Gaddafi or Bashir or Mobutu all those thought they would die in power. None died in power. So someone should remind Mwenda that he is not God. Genocide is not God. We don’t know whether that will happen or not. Let’s keep doing what we need to do. Let’s ensure that we have change and it comes smoothly and we can maintain stability. 

Moderator: When you were still leading the FDC, and at that time there was a lot of turbulence, there was a lot of talk about the third force, that General Muntu could provide the third force, could be the trusted politician that people from both sides can easily rally around, and it seemed you had this constituency that while it has written open letters written to you, I think this must have been around 2017, how did you see your role then and now in this transition journey of Uganda? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: Well, my personal participation in whatever I have participated in, regardless of whatever position I hold, whether it is at the front, whether it is in the center, whether it is at the rear, is to work to ensure that we get a significant number of people who think alike, who can act in concert, to ensure that we build a firm foundation on the basis of which we can build good governance principles in the governance systems of the country, and build a culture consistent with that. That is what I keep looking at all the time, and that is what we are still trying to build. We never care. When I was in FDC, we participated in trying to do that, and we had our own internal contradictions, which fortunately for us in Alliance for National Transformation, from our perspective, we managed to exit in a smooth way. We made promises to the leadership of FDC, which we kept. We promised Honorable Patrick Oboi that we would not provoke them, we would not undermine them, we would not attack them, and since the time we separated, we never participated in that, because we knew what it means when you engage in a strike in the opposition. It causes frustration for the population. Two, we are an organization that thinks that we need to build a new culture, and therefore we normally do the best we can to exercise what we believe in, undermining the current culture where politics is seen as dirty, where politics is seen that anything goes, where politics is like a generation of conflict, it is natural, it is inevitable. We want to undermine all that, and the only way we can undermine it effectively is how we practice what we do. So, we are still building. Those of us who are in Alliance for National Transformation, we think institutions are the main factor for any country that wants to be stable on a consistent basis, generation after generation. It must depend on strong institutions, and parties being the vehicles of governance, we are the ones who have that responsibility. We have to build this organization, even in the event that we have strong leaders, because by character people are different. Sometimes we only have strong-willed leaders, but even in cases of that nature, strong-willed leaders need, or should, or must operate within an environment of strong institutions and strong and deeply established governance systems. Because however strong any leader is, human beings are transitory. Today they are there, tomorrow they are not. So if we want to evolve or transition from being a post-colonial country to have a country having a strong state, having deeply entrenched governance systems, and strong institutions becoming the bedrock of governance, we have possible to build a significant number of people, one who believe that we must build these parties, the vehicles of governance. Nothing is going to happen until that happens. Every time, every country will take the direction of what the dominant force is. If the dominant force is of those who look at power as an enemy itself, and therefore use it as an opportunity to amass wealth, to steal, to loot, to oppress, and all that, it won’t happen. It doesn’t matter who they are. You can have changes of government over and over, but the direction will remain the same. The culture will remain the same. That’s the challenge we face. For us, we’re ready to play our part at an individual level, at an organization, a national transformation, but it’s going to be dependent on how the other actors act, including also the population, because the population are not kids, they’re not children. None of them are educated. 

Moderator: So, General, when you say it depends on a lot of other factors, including Ugandans, yeah? Ugandans, definitely. 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: We are the main factor, because even when the external actors are there, they supplement your effort. But those who get the external actors have got their own interest. 

Moderator: I agree. So, how do you feel about, what do you think of how Ugandans have perceived and responded to your type of politics? The building of structures and whatever, taking it slow and gradually like it is. Because right now, many people say they don’t hear about the Alliance for National Transformation. They do not know what you guys are doing, what’s happening. What does that mean? Yes, so basically that was the question. How do you feel about this, about Ugandans response to your type of politics? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: If you are not focused on the long term, if you have not psychologically prepared yourself to fight until you achieve the objectives for which you set yourselves, it can be frustrating. Nevertheless, this is our country. We have to do everything humanly possible regardless of whatever responses there are from the citizenry. We know there’s only a turning point, but that’s part of nature. As long as you keep focused on what your objectives are, if they are consistent with good, if it’s the good of all, in this case, if there’s the right cause and the message that you give resonates with people, eventually you’ll keep on building until you reach a critical time when that turnaround happens. So the first thing you have to do is you have to psychologically prepare for the long haul. If you succeed in a short time, good enough. If you don’t succeed, you’d have psychologically prepare yourself not to give up until you reach that end state that you’d have envisioned. And we went in for the long haul. We normally tell people we are not in politics for a stint, like those who run 100 meters. We’re in for a marathon. Because you must study the environment within which you’re operating. Like we go to sub-counties, that’s where we operate from. We’ve managed to go to a number of districts. We have not gone as far as we would have desired because of limitation of resources. But we cannot be deterred. We will keep on until we achieve that objective. Because, unfortunately, there are many who think that the day General Museveni is out, everything will be straightened out. That is going to be just soon. I can see without that in my mind that that is going to happen. And therefore, then what happens? Because I think even in when Museveni I mean, took over, there was hope that things were going to turn around because he had his own grievances. We are a country whose politics is driven by grievances, never by the desire to put into action or to establish what we desire to see happen in our society. So we mobilize around grievances against those we fight against. But unfortunately, we never go beyond to say, OK, once we remove this impediment, what do we do? That this group we have thrown out failed to do. No group has succeeded in that yet. If we don’t work day and night, it means another generation which will have taken that role. Some of us have got focus and the resilience and the required discipline to keep building. If we don’t succeed in our lifetime, at least we’ll hand over the baton to those who also have been prepared to walk in the same path. There’s nothing that will deter us from doing what we believe to be right. But to say something is additional to that, and that’s why we feel encouraged. There is no place in this country where we have been and we’ve been to all the four regions. In all the districts we’ve been to, at the sub-county level, where our message has not resonated with the people we meet. Because we normally meet, there are not many, normally meet about 200, 300. Those are not big numbers, that’s why even the press never seems to follow. Because I think the press and basically the mentality of the Ugandan people, they’re excited more by crowds than the content of what a group is doing. We’re not caught up by that. What gives us courage and hope is that everywhere we go, the message resonates. The only limitation that we see is resources to do that all over the country. The other challenge whenever we meet is even when the message resonates, you see how people are impeded either by fear or a form of helplessness. Because people have reached a point where they think that nothing good can happen in this country. And they think that even this dictatorship cannot be removed. And so people give up. And so people give up. But normally when leaders never get frustrated. Leaders never follow people whom they are leading. Leaders normally have a helicopter view of things. Leaders need to know that they are pioneering a new path. Cutting a new path like in a forest. There must be people who are resolute, who are resilient. And once they have finished cutting a path through a jungle, then the rest of the people start moving on. In that place which seemed to be impossible initially. That’s what the leaders need to do. That’s what we do in advance for national transformation. 

Moderator: That was my next question. I think you’ve answered it because the message resonates, but the response at polls, for example, is not commensurate to the number of people you meet and the message resonates with them. But I think you answered when you talk about fear and apathy and that has engulfed the population. But what will you do to change that? Because at the end of the day, we have to reach the objective that we are striving to. Is there any other way you think this can be done differently so that the message doesn’t only resonate but also translates into Ugandans taking that action that needs to be taken? 

General Mugisha Muntu: I think anybody who wants to see advancement in terms of advancing the political process in this country, I think we need to tackle this issue from all directions. We keep doing that. For advancing the political process in this country, I think we need to tackle this issue from all directions. We keep doing that wherever we meet religious leaders, we meet in the press, and wherever. The citizens need to know that we are in such a situation where even those who are not able to participate directly in politics need to know that the only way you can influence the future, they need to mobilize the resources and give them the parties that they trust, because that’s another limitation. I know for us as Alliance for National Transformation, and we had resources right from 2021 until now, I can tell you the political environment, the political terrain will be radically different from what we see today. If there’s anything I’m so sure of, it is that. And when we get the necessary resources and we keep on with people who don’t give up, it will be seen, the things we talk about, they become self-evident. But at the same time, we must also recognize that when you have limitations, you have to keep on until you overcome those limitations. And the Chinese saying, you know that like a granite, very hard rock, when the water, you know, which drops, you know, in tons of drops, dropping at the same spot over and over, over and over, it will create a hole at that point where it is dropping. So the struggle like this, we know that there are many people who are impeded by fear or sense of apathy, but if you keep pounding them with the message over and over, over and over, combined with the state of frustration they face because of the limitation of accessing health care, education, jobs, they reach a point where they say, you know what, what should we do? Now, the moment they start asking themselves what they should do when they have tried everything and it has failed, normally, naturally, they fall back to what they hear constantly, more so if it makes sense to them. They say, okay, we’ve tried this, we’ve tried that, that has not worked, let’s try this. Those who believe that what they are pushing is the right, and if they are focused and disciplined and have resilience, you keep doing that, you keep organizing, you keep preparing, and then at that point, and the English say, that success comes when opportunity meets with preparation. That opportunity always comes. But when you are not prepared, that opportunity can pass. That’s why we focus on organizing day in, day out, as long as we get any opportunity, we keep organizing, because we know there’s going to be a point in time where we are heading, when that opportunity will come, and we intend to be well organized and prepared to exploit that opportunity, and we believe that for the first time, when that opportunity is grasped, and it leads to ANT being an organization that would have influence in power, whether singularly or part of a larger group, but why to take that majority influence. At least people will start seeing what good governance is all about. So in the meantime, that’s why we focus on small numbers of people, because the hope is that we can attract those who think. The resilience, they have got the focus and the discipline, not to fall the temptations of power, but use power to the end where the population will be happy, where they will get services, where there will be the building of a new culture, where there is justice, where there are opportunities. And when we talk about a critical number, people think of hundreds of thousands. I keep repeating this, people who change nations are never hundreds of thousands, not even thousands. Independence has got leaders between 200 to 1,500, at least for the party’s general position. If you have got leaders, responsible leaders, every six or seven out of ten, at every level, at the sub-county, at the district, at the national level, by that ratio, like seven out of ten, that the balance of force is in favor of people who put country before self, that party will change this country. That’s where the solution lies. That’s why every Ugandan who wants to see change, meaningful change, positive change, needs to focus in the parties that they subscribe to, to build that. There’s no party which is going to change this country, unless it does that. Because every party which takes power will give the country what it has. And goodness never happens by accident. It must be deliberately, consciously built. To many Ugandans who get attracted in other areas of endeavor, and they forget that the platform on which we are standing, in whatever anybody is doing, whether in the private sector, whether in the public service, whether they are farmers, whether they are, you know, whatever endeavor they are in, that the foundation is political. The moment politics goes wrong, you will be affected as day follows night. People need to understand that. And therefore, people need to participate in shaping a future that they hope is going to be better than what it is. That future is not going to happen by accident. 

Moderator: Yes, I hear you. You know, going back to the role of the army in transition, first of all, what role do you see the army playing in the transition of this country? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: That’s why they say they need to work day and night. Nature hates vacuums. Even the political establishments are not well organized. And there was to be a crisis in this country. The army is the most well organized institution that is still standing. It doesn’t mean that it is cohesive, because it’s also being infiltrated by the stupidity of the practice of those who are in power. Because what they are doing is likely to cause seizures in the army itself. So when there’s a vacuum, always, as day follows night, armies step in. So when armies step in, it’s because there’s a vacuum. Most times. That’s why it’s incumbent upon every citizen who’s capable of doing analysis, who’s conscious that, you know what, we’ve gone through problems in this country for a long time. We need to see an end to this. We need to participate in shaping the future. 

Moderator: So the army, if it plays a big role in our circumstances, When this came up still during the conversation we had recently with Andrew Mwenda and him saying the army is the best, the most suitable, I think something like that. So I was thinking about the army being led by President Museveni’s son. And I said, so you mean the CDF, who is his son, will decide who becomes the next president? And he said, yes, either the CDF or the highest ranking, the most senior army officer. And that would be his brother, General Sarim Saleh. But we have also seen another member of the family who is not necessarily in the army. Also Jostling for this position. What do you think about this being sort of a family affair? And this is another possibility that even after the president dies, it’s one of his family members that will determine.

 Gen Mugisha Muntu: You know, the problem is that people look at things in a narrow way. And it’s unfortunate people don’t do analysis of what is happening, what has been happening on this continent since 1962. I heard you talk about the reference of the highest officers. We have had armies take over on this continent by sergeants, by captains, by majors, by colonels. So why would anybody make that assumption that necessarily the highest ranked officer is the one who will take over? We have also seen armies split and fight. That’s just happening in Sudan. Nevertheless, whichever group in Sudan overpowers the other, it is still going to be an armed force. There are different conditions in different countries. That’s why every Ugandan, really, who cares about the future, over and above who is doing what, needs to focus on how we build strong institutions. That even in the event of a crisis, that they become such active actors, that even when there is a crisis, that they can look at the country over and above themselves, over and above whatever representation they are making, whatever organization they are representing, that they can test them, putting in place the necessary mechanisms for ensuring that the country remains stable. What extent can we contribute to that, either through speaking openly, or through behind-the-scenes influences, or through actions that can influence what could be done? You know, before I complete this, let me also bring it to our attention that we as an African people have a problem. Because it is highly desirable that we have democratic institutions and we have good governance as countries. But putting that aside, when you look in the past, like in Uganda, if I was to look at Uganda from 1962, because at times you talk about, there has never been the systems. Because we have literally, as a country, gone through the use of different governance systems. We had a multi-party system of governance in the early 60s. And then we had a one-party state from 1967 to 1971. We’ve had a military regime. Then we had the UNLF, which was quasi-military, quasi-political. Then we had the second Obote II, where there was a two-party system. And then, of course, another coup in Lutwa, which took a short time. And then comes in the movement. And then the transition to quasi-transition to multi-party system of governance. And none of those has succeeded. So the problem is not systems, the problem is us, the actors, us, the citizenry. So in whichever direction we want to take, we must be the ones to say, look, it seems we have a problem in our thinking, in our capacity for analysis, or in our capacity to manage ourselves, because that’s another problem that all those systems have happened. Why? Because the attendance of us who are actors on this part of the continent are driven by an emotion which is so dangerous in a society. You know what, there’s no restraint for immediate gain. We don’t have the things we have as human beings. Every human being was created as that. But we see in other countries, regardless of whatever system, whether it is like in China, China is not a system like we normally talk about, those who are trying to build democracies based on the Western-style democracies. You look at countries that have gone through military coups, South Korea, which is higher advanced now even in the terms of good governance, started as a military dictatorship under General Park Chung-hee. But what you notice in some of those countries is the focus and discipline that they apply in advancing the country first and foremost, which basically would show that at least a significant number of them, those who influence how governance is conducted, that they have got capacity to restrain what comes to human beings for immediate gain. It’s called delayed gratification. Instead, we, most of the African people here in Uganda specifically, you can see within the political class, the emotion that drives us is the instant gratification. And I can tell you, when the majority of the actors in the political class are driven by that emotion, you’re bound to have negative consequences. So back to the question. If there was, my hope that by that time, when anything would happen, that there would be either one or two or three organizations that have built themselves to be credible in the eyes of Ugandans, to be trusted, that even when there was to be a crisis, that people would fall back to them because of trust. Because a vacuum is not created because of the physical lack of human beings occupying space. No. It is the lack of a sense of trust in what people would say that, yes, we can see that organization, that one and that one, they are credible, alternative voices. So when the organizations build themselves to be that, I can tell you, even the army, don’t think that those army officers and men are robots. They are not. Men have been exposed to situations of failed states because it has operated in Liberia, it has operated in Central African Republic, it has operated in Congo, it has operated in South Sudan, it has operated in Somalia, so they know what it means. Many are educated, many are well trained. I have a sense that the moment we concentrate on building credible political forces, that many would be influenced to continue supporting the political process. But if there’s a sense of a vacuum, then the military forces would step in. If the military forces stepped in, what would happen is basically dependent on the character of the officer that would have come in. If there are these ones whom I see, and I can talk about General Museveni, any Ugandan should ask himself, and I keep asking this question, if Gen Muhoozi as he has expressed publicly that he had wanted to become the president of Uganda, I kept on asking the question, if you’re breaking the law before you become a president, there’s a clear law there that you should not operate in politics when you are sitting in uniform, and you completely disregard that, what would you do when you are president? So if the army stepped in, whether it would be led by people, whether it is Gen Muhoozi or anybody else, of the same thinking, don’t expect any difference. Possibly even you’ll get worse. And if it was to be pulled off by the military force, maybe, because of an internal dynamic that would have developed, if the character of the officer that would handle power thereafter were disciplined, focused, and care more about the country than themselves. Yes, we have seen where armies, for the period that they are in, trying to manage a transition and put countries back on track. I don’t know. I’m not like Mwenda, who thinks that he knows what is going to happen tomorrow. I don’t know. The one prime minister of the UK, I think it was Harold Wilson in the 1960s, said that a week is too long in politics. So I see people who make conclusions about what is going to happen a year from now. They are simply clueless. None of us knows. 

Moderator: Thank you, General. I see we have people that have requested for a microphone, so I’m going to ask one more question. And we first allow questions from the audience. And if time allows, I’ll ask two more from those that I had earlier. So the opposition. May I see what’s happening with the opposition in this country? And say, does it inspire any confidence to be ready?  And I think it speaks to the vacuum you have been talking about here. So when we see that we are products of the oppression from which we come. Yeah So look at look at FDC look at DP and UPC look at At what’s happening in Parliament I think I’ve seen and some member of the opposition is bringing a bill where He’s saying that the need of opposition should be Elected by the members of the opposition It wouldn’t be bad per se, but but it’s it’s brought in these fights of the bickering within the opposition still how How do you see the opposition? rallying Ugandans behind This what you’re talking about that this is we have to be the ones to play a role in this Transition we have to be the ones to make sure that The plans of President Museveni or his family or his son We do not let them do whatever they want to do with this country. How how will this happen with the opposition the way we have it who will lead these efforts? 

Gen Mugisha Muntu: Those of us who are in the opposition need to operate from the understanding that look we are trying to expose ourselves to the public to gain their trust Because when you are trying to take over power you operate in a manner that you build trust with the population To the point where the population can say we trust this party. We think it can hold the country together It can run it and move it into the desired direction I mean if you fall short of that over and over I can tell you time is very ruthless over time We can completely disappear, but if you don’t measure up the expectations of people eventually The unfortunate thing that most people want to look at things in short-term perspective. They look at five-year cycles I can tell you you can just maybe 10 years 15 years 20 years down the road 30 years down the road You may find that the parties which do exist now may not exist then Unless they are resilient unless they are focused unless they build their credibility with the public that the public trust them and then they keep On don’t be surprised. I mean we’ve seen even parties which have been in power. Where is Kanu now? Kanu literally disappeared Where CCP of Ghana, it’s completely disappeared. Where is UNIP in Zambia completely disappeared? What do you think is going to happen in the moment? My suspicion is that it will completely become extinct So we are dealing with the current challenges. But I would like to believe that people who want to build things which last need to look at things beyond now And when you look at things which which last you build in a different style That’s what we keep focused on as it runs for national transformation And our belief is that over a period of time there are things which will be done There are things which will happen that will come so self-evident And we really also bring out what we talk about and people see it in practice You know, I think many of us the African people are Thomases of the Bible people want to touch first I don’t want they don’t believe unless they until they touch. 

Moderator: Ok. Thank you Gen. I’m going to ask some of the members of the audience to come in and ask their questions. I had seen one question among the comments.

This is the an X space from Agora Discourse with me Agather Atuhaire: Transition Question: A conversation with Gen Mugisha Muntu and transcribed by Henry Otafiire. This material may be protected by copyright

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *